scooters, golf carts & 4-wheelers at alpine
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Here's something that has been discussed quite a bit lately, and I am wondering what you all think about it. There's pros & cons, so let's hear it.
Should scooters, golf carts & 4-wheelers be allowed on alpine roads?
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Here's something that has been discussed quite a bit lately, and I am wondering what you all think about it. There's pros & cons, so let's hear it.
Should scooters, golf carts & 4-wheelers be allowed on alpine roads?
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in one word - NO!
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I agree with M&M. Safety for all concerned: no.1. Insurance costs: no.2.
Peace and Sound, no.3.
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Alpine Newbie writes:
I'm kind of torn on this. Our new Alpine Lake vacation home is being built this summer-Yippee! We will be in the Bern section. It would be nice to be able to drive a golf cart over to the beach area but I do understand that logistically this could pose a problem. Maybe at some point it could work.
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Welcome To Bern! We too have a cabin in the Bern section. I understand your desire to drive your golf cart to the beach, etc. But think for a moment about all the hills you will have to traverse in the golf cart while sharing the roads with automobiles and trucks. If two parties crest a hill at the same moment in opposite directions, the result could be a lot worse than just a fender bender.
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Agree with M&M and Marvin absolutely NO.
1. What are the liability issues?
2. Who will police the situations that would most definitely arise?
3. What about underage drivers operating non insured vehicles on roads utilized by the public?
Questions on this issue could go on and on.
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I have a question regarding this issue that someone here might be able to answer.
Assuming that a Maryland legal vehicle is OK to drive on AL roads (like many of us have) would an under 50cc moped be OK, because it is legal in Maryland?
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I feel golf carts should remain on the golf course since they don't have the necessary safety equipment such as lights turn signals etc. However, scooters and mopeds do have the necessary safety equipment and should be allowed.
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Shadowcatcher~ there are many types of vehicles that are street legal in WV including 4-wheelers. I would imagine mopeds are also.
However, Alpine roads are private, and restrictions to what vehicles are allowed have been made in the past.
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49cc scooters are no longer legal to drive in Maryland or West Virgina without tags. They changed the law recently. Our GM addressed this issue on the Alpine Lake web site under messages. I have two scooters and have ordered tags for both.
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We are building as well and recently (2 months ago) purchase two 50cc scooters. We were told by the dealer in WV that tags were not needed in WV or MD. They are very quiet, which is why we chise them.
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Oh, and yes, our new scooters are insured.
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Hello AL,
I don’t think anyone is proposing that we have ATVs and dirt bikes racing up and down the quiet streets of Alpine. How about a more reasonable approach ?
Allow for small scooters and golf carts limited to persons with a valid drivers license during day light hours only.. I can think of lots of advantages to be able to keep our golf cart at the house.
Rgrds
Brad
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I agree with brad. Also, whatever is allowed on WV roads should apply to Alpine.
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You could not be more wrong, Alpine is private, this is the difference. We do not have to allow any of these types of vehicles and hope not to. Once the trend is started you'll see more and more, getting way out of hand. Better to put a stop to it now. And I beleive our by-law prohibit these types of vehicles.
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No ATV's; No 4-wheelers; No snowmobiles; One of the reasons I bought in Alpine Lake is for the peace and quiet. There are plenty of other places nearby, including the state forests in Maryland (Piney Mountain ATV Trail?) where ATVs and snowmobiles can be used. Just have to trailer them there. There are also other developments nearby (Youghiogheny Mountain Resort) that I believe allow such vehicles to be used.
And the golf carts need to stay off the roads. Even though they are not supposed to be, I see a number of them being driven on roads (Primrose) when I'm out for my runs.
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I get the noise concern with the bigger vehicles. But why not golf carts? The gas ones are quiet enough. As far as safety goes with respect to sharing the road with cars/trucks, it is no more dangerous than riding my bike or walking. What, exactly, is being prevented by prohibiting golf carts? Thanks in advance for your help.
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This is the posting from our GM Jim on this issue.
You can find it on the Alpine Lake website.
Unlicensed Vehicles on Alpine Lake Roads - Over the past few months, I have been asked if it's OK to drive golf carts or unlicensed motor scooters on Alpine Lake roads, a question no doubt spurred by ever-increasing fuel prices.
Regarding the question on driving golf carts on AL roads -- if you refer to our Declarations of Restrictions, Para 13. B. states, "No vehicle except a duly licensed vehicle shall be operated on any street and no such vehicle may be operated except by a duly licensed driver." Also, there has been some talk about scooters with less than 50cc engines being "street legal" in WV, and many residents have asked if they can drive them on Alpine Lake without a license. According to the state police and the state DMV, ALL motor scooters and mopeds operating on WV roads must be licensed. In the case of mopeds or motor scooters of 50cc or less, owners must submit documentation certifying the vehicles meet federal safety standards before the state will issue a license. Without doubt, our rules specifically preclude the use of conveyances such as unlicensed motor scooters, mopeds, ATVs, and golf carts.
However, you can drive any of these vehicles on private property in West Virginia. All Alpine Lake roads are private, but rules for usage fall under Alpine Lake's Declarations of Restrictions, which would need to be amended before unlicensed vehicles could be permitted on our roads.
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A majority of POs in AL own lots/homes that are not within reasonable walking distance to some of the amenities. That being said I think the daylight only use of an electric unmodified golf cart would not undermine the peace and tranquility of the AL community. They can be controlled/monitored through AL registration stickers much like the water vessels. Also, the posted speed limit in AL is low enough to allow for safe traveling. I've been to gated retirement communities in Nevada where golf carts are owned and utilized by most of its residents almost exclusively while within the community, to get around to the amenities, i.e.(boathouse, golf course, beach, lodge, etc)and very successfully I might add. Some of the advantages are..there are no carbon dioxide emissions, residents would not have to drive their cars as much around AL, hence less wear and tear on the paved roads, less noise, less pollution, less money spent on gas...start thinking green people, geez.
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Many private communities accommodate golf cart and scooter use by their residents. Some go so far as to provide special parking and accommodations for such vehicles. I see a great deal of focus on risk and potential negatives in this thread but I’d like to speak to the positives here.
Both types of vehicles are lighter, quieter, and definitely more fuel efficient than automobiles. Expanded use of these types of transportation devices would reduce the wear on our road system. Less fuel consumption would benefit the owners and the community with less carbon emissions. This, combined with the reduction in noise makes them more environmentally friendly than our autos.
There’s no doubt concerns raised in this thread have to be addressed. I would hope our community can reach a compromise. It’s my belief we should encourage alternatives to automobile use. Gas is approaching $4.00 per gallon and it’s not going back down for a very, very long time. I think we need to expand our horizons. I’m confident allowing scooters and golf carts in the community would benefit us all. It would show our flexibility around these issues and our dedication to alternatives to vehicle use.
We’re not talking about opening this up to snowmobiles and 4-trax devices. This is about scooters and golf carts. I hope we can look at this as an opportunity to expand our appeal to a wider audience.
How would one amend the AL Declarations and Restrictions?
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Not sure of the exact details on how to change the Declaration and Restrictions here at Alpine. But, it usually goes something like this:
1. Someone draws up the proposed wording to the documents.
2. The changes are then voted on by the membership. It usually takes either a simple majority (50%) or a super majority (66%?) to pass the change. Which majority is needed should be spelled out the the Declarations and Restrictions.
What I don't know is how all the lots that are owned by developers play into all this. Also, do not know if each lot gets one vote, or it's just one vote per property owner, regardless of the number of lots held.
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Steve S~ the developers (with reduced assessment rates) have no voting rights at all... votes are determined by the # of lots you own. For example, if you have a home that sits on 2 lots...you have 2 votes. If you own 8 lots, you get 8 votes. Hope this helps!
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Yes it did.
Thanks, Diana
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I was on the internet and found lots of information on this issue.
Rgrds
Brad
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The Center for Urban Transportation Research (CUTR).
Subject: Golf carts making the rounds in some communities
http://www.cutr.usf.edu/pubs/news_let/articles/winter98/win98-5.htm
Carts Are in Demand, but Who Said Anything About Golfing? Vehicles Pull Duty as Both Transport and Hobby
By Dan Morse
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, November 26, 2006; A01
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/25/AR2006112500976.html
College Campuses:
http://www.jmu.edu/safetyplan/vehicle/golfcart.shtml
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Here's a file Brad found and wanted put on the blog...
golf cart legislation
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I've been told that an 80% vote of membership is needed to change the by-laws. That's not 80% of respondents, but 80% of members. The problem is to get enough people to return a vote to change anything. That probably would be true @ 50% or 66%.
Again, this is unconfirmed information.
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Hmmm. 80% sounds high to me, but could be. It's in the bylaws - I just haven't pulled them out to check. You would have a hard time getting 80% of a group of people to agree on the color of the sky!
My HOA back here in Baltimore County requires a two-thirds majority. We went through a change several years ago when people decide they wanted to allow basketball hoops to remain outside (the original bylaws required that no play equipment be left outdoors overnight). It took a lot of legwork with proponents basically going door to door to get the required majority approval, but the change was passed in the end.
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Hey Steve S,
We live in Baltimore County, in the Mays Chapel community, and had a similar situation with one hoop. My neighbor put one up in our court and one person was against it and called the police. We were forced to take it down.
Never thought to change the by-laws, but the level of participation in all neighborhood votes (even those requiring votes on assessments) is around 10%. I fear that will be the same in AL.
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shadowcatcher-
In Balto Co, basketball hoops along the curb or in the street are illegal. It's got nothing to do with covenants or HOA rules and restrictions or anything like that, but a matter of being against county statutes.
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Thanks for the info. I didn't know that.
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We are all for allowing golf carts and scooters on the roads in Alpine. Much better way to get around than cars!
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We are all? all who? we are NOT in favor, we do not want to see this on our private roads. I will never vote for this should it come up and will lobby against it. We purchased in AL for peace and quiet, having mopeds speeding all around is not what any of us want to see or hear.
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I recommend we look into a lite rail system. It could start at the lodge and work its way though the various areas of Alpine. Cost about 25 million
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How about horse and buggies.....very little pollution other than the natural fertilizer we could all use to green up the golf course.
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Too funny, but I'm sure there are rules against having draft animals as well.
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Listen to this-a friend of mine who also lives in a private community and is a member of an HOA told me they have had the same topic of discussion. (This is not in WV) Several homeowners there checked with their insurance companies and were advised that if in fact the organization did allow non insured, non licensed vehicles (they were looking at golf carts only) to share the roadways their insurance would not cover any accident. Don't know about WV, but sure am going to check into this asap.
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Now this is interesting...and pertinent. Let us know what you find out, please.
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As Brian B. stated earlier, the declarations of restrictions has answered this question.
Declarations of Restrictions, Para 13. B. states, "No vehicle except a duly licensed vehicle shall be operated on any street and no such vehicle may be operated except by a duly licensed driver."
Until the Declarations are changed, the answer to any unlicensed vehicle on alpine roads is NO. Plain & simple. And no individual has the power to make exceptions for anyone. Once they do, where does it end?
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Yes, that is what our Declarations of Restrictions state, however, it is my understanding if you get a license plate that has West Virginia on it, you are allowed by management to use the roads within Alpine Camp, regardless of any restrictions. Please comment otherwise.
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Years ago, I contacted management about the possibility of allowing me to use a golf cart so that my son, who has cerebral palsy and walks only with great difficulty, could go along with my wife, my other son and me on walks along the roads. I was told, in no uncertain terms, "No." So for 15 years or so, my wife and I have obeyed the rules and taken our walks one at a time while the other stays in our cottage with our son. So, it bothers me when I follow a cart down the road. While I would probably welcome a proper change in our restrictions, I've said before that allowing exceptions to our restrictions in a bad practice that endangers everyone's investment.
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Mr. Martin:
I read your posting with disbelief. What a terrible injustice....
A measure of our humanity is our understanding and care for one another. It breaks my heart to think of what your son could have experienced on those outings. I have difficulty imagining how anyone would deny him that, especially considering the beauty, the bounty, and the diversity found at Alpine Lake.
I don't speak for anyone but myself sir, but let me say my heart goes out to you and to your family for enduring such a decision. I doubt I could have done so in your place.
I also respectfully present to you that we have to allow for exceptions. Policies and rules need to have flexibility so that we can accommodate situations such as yours. I would argue that had the board allowed an exception for you, the community would not be in ruins today because your son rode in a golf cart with your family on walks. I speculate just the opposite; we'd be a better community for having the wisdom to facilitate such a thing.
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Just spotted your kind comments. Actually, I'm fine with the decision as it was made for the protection of all concerned... those who would be using the cart [my family] and those who would be financially responsible if some accident occurred [all of us]. My son LOVES Alpine and so do we. We just get PO'd when people are selfish and blatently disregard our commonly held agreements. We have a golf cart and if the restrictions are amended, we'll pay the fee and bring it to Alpine for a week at least every summer. If not, we'll make do. So should everyone.
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One of the reasons we purchased in Alpine was that these types of vehicles were NOT aloud on the streets. We are weekenders and hopefully full timers some day and do not wish to see any of these on our roads. We did happen to see someone with one of these little motor bikes on our roads about a month ago, they were speeding along Rhododendron Drive. These can be dangerous to both the rider and vehicles. DON NOT ALLOW THESE ON OUR ROADS.
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Gary,
What about the sight of a middle-aged, slightly overweight, follicly challenged guy with smashing bermuda's and cool knee socks (uh...that's me - sort of) on a moped type of scooter or a golf cart causes you distress?
As far as noise levels go, the dB (decibels) of either of these things is well below what most of the allowed traffic produces when you consider the various construction vehicles that rumble through.
Dangerous? Are you trying to protect me? Thanks, but please don't. What are the accident statistics that you have to prove the danger? Are you going to want to prevent me from riding my bicycle on the roads due to the "danger" of me becoming a hood ornament? Why not just avoid me instead and then both of us can be happy?
DO ALLOW GOLF CARTS AND SCOOTERS ON OUR ROADS.
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This is a very good discussion, and it's interesting to hear the different points of view.
Another problem with allowing scooters & golf carts would be 'how do we regulate their usage'. In effect, are folks using them to drive back & forth to the lodge or beach to save gas? Or, do they ride them around for hours just for fun?
Here's two examples... a friend years ago had one at alpine that he would drive to lodge to exercise. Drove to the lodge and back home, no big deal. But last year, two youngsters were riding their scooters around for hours. They would just circle the roads, not going anywhere. And that was quite annoying! Finally, one wiped out at the intersection in front of our house. He didn't stop at the stop sign and tried to make the turn, hitting loose gravel and the scooter slid out. I ran out to make sure he was OK, but he jumped up and took off. Probably too embarrassed to admit he was injured. BTW, they were not wearing helmets.
The community has been largely unsuccessful in regulating contractors, fishing permits, parking, speeding and boats. And the boats are just sitting in the 'boatyard'. How much success would we have regulating the usage of scooters & golf carts?
Alternative transportation can be a plus, but alpine's roads are not meant to be an amusement park.
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This picture was taken on May 2, 2008.
And there was no tag on this scooter.
Maybe the regulations have already been changed!
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Hi Diana,
Your story reminds me of another of our "Alpine Declarations of Restrictions". that no one under 16 may operates a motor vehicle in Alpine. I'm sure this was referring to golf carts, but I'm sure it would apply here.
Anonymous is correct that with proper tags scooters should be legal to ride here. With legal tags they are just low power motorcycles.
A little food for thought. I have 2 scooters that now have legal tags. My family uses them to get around because we always come here in one car. I purchased them because WV and even MD did not require tags at the time. Now when it is time to replace them I'm sure not going to buy 49cc scooters I might as well buy something much more powerful that I can ride to Deep Creek since I already have tags.
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Diana:
I see your posting and I can appreciate your sentiment. it can be frustrating when other act in a manner we do not approve. I also understand that the written word can easily be misinterpreted so I reply with a cautionary tone. I think we have to be careful about such things. My wife and I regularly drive the roads inside the compound with no particular place to go and no articulated reason to be out and about. Requiring people justify themsleves using the roads is not only unenforceable but has serious liberty overtones. We may be a private community but would present to all that we have to respect people's rights and freedoms.
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Hey Dennis/Steve~ You are absolutely correct. I am a big fan of civil liberties. On occasion, I also have driven around the compound with no particular place to go. Thanks for your comment.
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Back around May '05 (while I was on the board), there was a comprehensive written report from our attorney concerning this issue. I'm sure the Board has followed up with our insurance carrier and it would be interesting to hear what they have to say.
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Golf carts will beget quads. Scooters will beget motorcycles and dirt bikes. Mark it down. Get rid of all inappropriate vehicles, and while you are at it, get rid of all the boats. ALPOA should buy 20 boats and rent them out. It would improve the look of the place and add money to the community coffers.
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If the ALPOA is buying boats I would like to suggest a 2008 TRACKER Tournament™ V-18 Ranger model available at Bass Pro shops. I could see myself catching a lot of fish in that boat !!!
Thanks,
Bass Pro
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I watch cars and trucks blow by my house far beyond the posted limit all the time. A golf cart even at full speed would be a nice change.
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Hey Brian. I did mention earlier how we have a serious problem with people speeding and the community isn't able to control it. There's one PO above me that drives a blue truck pretty fast. In fact, I've heard many times in BirchesGarden... ooh, there goes the 'blue bullet'.
Speeding has always been a problem in alpine. Perhaps that issue should be addressed ASAP.
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I think I've seen him.
I agree, I told the security guys to feel free using my driveway for radar. They have clocked speeds in excess of 60! Zoom Zoom.
I like the idea of vehicles with a top speed of 30
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Excellent point. With all the people using the roads for biking, walking, jogging and personally having young children, those who have been speeding through the development are causing some serious safety issues & you can hear them coming from a long distance away - especially by the boathouse or on Alpine Drive East. We agree with Diana that before we add any more things to monitor, we should figure out how to get control over the things that are currently "rules". As Dennis points out, what are the consequences for not following the rules? Does Alpine Security really have the power to exercise any consequences especially if the offenders are not property owners? The speeding comes to mind, the boats "docked" on the shore in various places (not at the boat house), and the fishing. A case in point ... last week there was a group of 3 men fishing - they had at least 10-12 trout between them and when they moved further down the shore with those trout, they left all their bait containers on the lawn. Do not know how many they caught in their next location but in their first they were already over the limit. The group had a red Alpine sticker on their windshield - is that a prior color issued? We have green so not sure what red means. Perhaps they are not aware of the rules but security sat in their vehicle in the upper parking lot by the tennis court the whole time these gentlemen were fishing & were right above them. It would have been difficult not to see how many fish they had as their car was even closer to the group then ours. Perhaps we should have pointed out the rules to them or alerted security but not having had the best of experiences with security and the current board, we did not & also not knowing if red meant something special we hesitated confronting three rather large men!
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In answer to your question of the "red Alpine Lake stickers", those stickers are what designates the automobile as "employee" status. So, it seems the three gentlemen that were fishing out our stock of trout were employees or an employee's family, friends, etc. Security most likely knew at least one of the individuals. Since we are held accountable for a creel limit, shouldn't the GM hold the employees accountable as well?
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60 mph is just ridiculous, Brian! Thank you for offering your prime location for radar. I hope security has been using it. Sadly, many times those speeding are property owners.
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I've read a great deal here on this topic. Since the Declarations and Restrictions set up the requirements, what are the penalties for non-compliance? If I ride my scooter (actually I don't own a scooter, I have a registered '07 Harley-Davidson Road King Classic) inside the compound what's my punishment if Security stops me or if my neighbor rats me out? Do I get thrown in Alpine Lake jail, or stood up against the boathouse wall and shot, or chain-gang'd, or what?
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As a sidebar, Dennis/Steve, I had no idea you are a Harley guy. The punishment available to hand out is to make you a property owner not in good standing... that means you can't vote or use the ammenities like the pool...OOPS! That is about all that can be done.
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As I read the statement from the restrictions, I understand that a licensed motorcycle is not prohibited.
Please correct me, if I'm wrong.
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Hey shadowcatcher~ You are correct. A licensed motorcycle is not prohibited on alpine roads. The sticking point is minibikes, mopeds, scooters, golf carts and 4 wheelers. This is not a new issue at alpine... the board has a comprehensive report from our attorney that concerns this. The insurance company was also supposed to weigh in on this issue. By the time that report was finished, I was no longer on the board. It seems to me that both those reports should be available to all property owners elther on the website or in an alpine publication. That way, we are all on the same page.
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To all who have contributed comments about the scooters, golf carts and other vehicles other than cars. I'm trying to sort out what the issues are. Is the concern about safety? Is it for the noise? Is it about following rules? Is it about enforcing regulations? Please help me to understand. Although we say we are a private community, we don't present ourselves as private. The public is invited to fish in our lake, ski on our trails, play on our new (and expensive) tennis courts, swim on our beach, etc. We have no real observable enforcement of any of our regulations (except perhaps speeding). So, as far as I'm concerned, at the moment, we are not really private. And therefore, any rule that pertains to the state or county should pertain to us. However, if we should decide as a community that we really want to be private, it then begins to be a different matter. We can make rules different or beyond the local and state regulations and have the ability to enforce them. So, in trying to sort out the different perspectives presented by the blog contributors, I need to understand what the real, bonafide issues are and how valid they are.
Appreciate it if you can help me see through this confusion.
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05/08/08
Hello from Inside the Compound:
This is what I believe I may be wrong, and it wouldn’t be the first time….
We are a private community. We allow guests onto our property to share our amenities for a fee? We pay for and our responsible for the care and maintenance of the roads, street lights, utilities, etc. The security department controls access onto the property at the gate and controls the traffic enforcement.
Your right many bloggers are struggling with what it means to live inside the gate?
Some bloggers want a more modern approach to the rules. A more current version to reflect society today allowing golf carts and scooters? Update the rules and regulations to allow more personal freedoms. Maybe just to reflect the truth to what is really going on?
( Golf carts and scooters driving on the roads ?? )
Some bloggers want a more old fashioned approach . The way it used to be in the old days.
A place for rest full relaxation with quiet streets with less noise and traffic. Maybe a more stringent interpretation of the laws. ( It's right there in black and white, but not being enforced !!! )
Here’s an unfortunate hypothetical story:
The rules are the rules right ? Can you really drive 25 mph down some of our hills with out standing on the breaks?
Not John Doe. You know the guy with the blue truck who drives 60 mph down the hill. What are you talking about ? He’s a great guy !! He stops at the guard shack to talk, and brings us doughnuts all the time….
Hey, he told me about a great fishing spot!! He said he caught 15 trout last Monday?? He brought over two for my dinner last night ..
You know John he’s a full time resident and serves on the board, always volunteers for everything !! Great guy..
Hey I saw him last week driving his golf cart on the road from his house down to the course for the start of the season ?
Hey but, No means No !!! Enforce the rules !!!! Stay off the grass ???
Even cops don’t give speeding tickets to other cops , right ? Would you write a speeding ticket to a board member ?
As a society we will always have this dilemma :
What are the rules of law.
What rules are being enforced.
What rules are not being enforced.
Who is ignoring the rules of law.
Who is being let off the rules ?
In the blog as a community we need to meet some where in the middle of the road.
This is why a healthy debate is good. This blog has been a great place for ideas and open dialogue. If we allow golf carts and scooters does it mean that were going to have monster trucks and tractor pulls next week?
We also want that quiet relaxing place in the Beautiful Mountains of WV.
We love sitting on the deck with no traffic and noise going down the street.. Just my thoughts for the discussion …
Rgrds
Brad
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Hey Brad~ you have defined this issue in a nutshell. This discussion proves that property owners can debate an issue in a logical and practical manner.
As PO's, we all pay a lot of money to live here. We deserve the same benefits. If a select few get to leave their kayaks at the beach all summer or drive scooters with vanity tags, how is that fair to the majority of PO's who follow the rules? No more 'special' permission for 'special' property opwners.... same rules for everyone!
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I don't understand the requirement to regulate anything that is legal on the state roads.....
The new board needs to sit down and look at ALL regulations here and ask WHY? and HOW DO WE ENFORCE THIS.
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Mr. Hart, agree with you.
The enforcement of regulations within AL is and has been a troublesome issue. Currently, it seems to be an "honor system" only. There are always those who choose not to acknowledge rules in any society, the same is true here at AL, especially when there is no consequences or accountability.
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Let's make the lake catch and release for one year as a trial run. We could also contact Curtis Silwa and get the Guardian Angels to enforce the regs. Issue every PO in good standing a red beret! If the pool is really broken, who was responsible for maintenance? Take any "expert" report with a great deal of skepticism.
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From my personal observations last summer I believe that some of the locals know they can come into Alpine Lake and poach a boat load of fish?
As a PO my family always practices catch and release. We want to maintain the resources for future outings at the Lake.
We can stop this is a number of ways:
One suggestion is to limit outsiders from bringing in boats for the day, or charge them an astronomical fee of like $25.00 to launch the boat for the day.
We also have paid Security Officers on duty. Have them stop and check all fishing parties as they are leaving the property. We should have the right to check the creel limits inside our
( private property ).
In order to do this just post a sign at the entrance stating the fishing rules and regulations. The sign should state that we have the right to check their coolers, etc. as they leave the property.
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Bassman, I agree with you.If they are taking over the limit it wouldnt be hard to have all who had a fishng permit for the day to be checked as they go. Best place to do that would be at the boat dock. Like we have to check deer in. Maybe a notice of random checks at boatdock and fines posted would scare them off from taking the chance.
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I like the idea of checking fishing creel limits, but think the only issue with the boat house is spreading the Security force to thin? We already pay them to watch the gate. They can just add it to their duties?
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I think it is important to remember that the security force is responsible for just that: security. It's nice that they can watch for speeders, etc., but charging them with enforcement of our restrictions would indeed stretch them too thin and would be beyond the scope of their duties. Once, I followed a golf cart from the lodge to the area near the beach and complained to security and, so far as I know, nothing happened. In retrospect, it seems to me that such enforcement is not their job, it's the job of ALPOA. Maybe it would be OK to have security check for fish, but I wonder if they would have the authority to do so. Although I don't make it to Alpine very often, my experience with human nature tells me that people probably know who is poaching or being greedy. I think it would be up to us to gather the collective backbone to do something about it. Does allowing others to fish actually make us money? Would it cost us anything to eliminate fishing by outsiders? I am fully in favor of giving our employees use of the amenities, but there would have to be a very good financial reason for allowing the public use of any amenity.
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I think the Board should change the policy on use of Alpine's amenities except for the golf course and the dining facilities. Use of the lake and all other amenities should be reserved for property owners and their invited guests...after all, we are the people who pay the bills! My wife and I are also homeowners...like many of you have "invested significantly" in Alpine Lake Resort. I think the Board needs to first and foremost protect the investors. I am not being mean-spirited, but Alpine is private property. And yes, there does need to be some mechanism for dealing with trespassers and poachers...i.e. call the Sheriff.
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Mr. Trammell. Your points are extremely valid. In fact, I've been trying to get those points across for some time now.
I've been planning a new discussion conrcerning the 'private or not' issue. I believe its something we all should consider.
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I decided to reach out to my insurance agent to query him on this matter. My guy has been in the business for over 30 years and with the same stodgy company (Erie Insurance) for the entire time. I presented to him a number of scenarios and obtained his response.
Scenario #1: I’m driving my licensed automobile inside the compound and I get broadsided by Demon Diana on her unlicensed scooter.
Agent’s response: Diana’s homeowner’s insurance will cover the damage to my vehicle and any personal injury up to the limits of her policy. If Diana’s homeowner’s policy does not have liability, my uninsured motorist policy covers me. If she doesn’t have homeowners and I don’t have uninsured, I’m out of luck. This would be the same result if she’s riding a peddle bike, golf cart, any unlicensed vehicle motorized or not, hitting golf balls off her front lawn, or just plain throwing rocks as cars go by.
Scenario #2: Same as #1 only I broadside Demon Diana
Agent’s response: My auto policy covers my damage and my liability for her damage and personal injury
Scenario #3: I’m walking along the road by the lake and Demon Diana plows me over on her unlicensed Scooter as she trying to make it to the Laker Lounge for dinner and a cold beer.
Agent’s response: Her homeowner’s policy covers my injuries. If she’s uninsured my personal medical covers my injuries. This would be same regardless if the striking vehicle is motorized or not.
Scenario #4: I’m riding my scooter and Demon Diana plows into me.
Agent’s Reply: The insurance companies would determine who was at fault and the homeowner’s policy would cover that liability. If Diana doesn't ahv homeowners coverage, my persoanl medical insurance covers me.
My agent has never heard of an insurance company that would decline to cover any accident on private property if it permitted unlicensed vehicles to operate. He indicated that property designation is a non-issue, just as a parking lot collision between a motorist and scooter would be covered as long as the licensed vehicle had uninsured motorist coverage.
Hope this helps.
BTW-Stay away from Demon Diana on her scooter. She's a crazy woman....
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Hi Dennis(Steve)~ thanks for your time and effort looking into this subject. Your Demon Diana reference is laugh out loud funny...thought my record was expunged! I owe you a beer!
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You're on!
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Geez! Someone actually put forth the effort to ask an insurance professional these pertinent questions. And the answers are very enlightening. At no time did the agent infer that the property owners' association would be held liable. Hummmmmmm!! Very interesting. Begs the question - has our management - including board members - been intimidated by insurance agents and companies? And for what purpose? I think this prompts some good deep probing to really understand the level to which our organization would be held liable for a number of amenities we would like to have and enjoy but which have been denied us because of insurance liability threats. Are there any insurance professionals out there who could enlighten us? Please respond.
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Judith: It is true the Agent did not mention liability for the POA. It should also be noted that he does not work in the area of business insurance/liability. Our conversation focused on personal liability and insurance.
There is no doubt if we permit scooters and golf carts we will have increased liability. Liability occurs when we permit property owners or patrons to participate in any activity.
We increase our liability by having our volunteer day, by allowing PO groups to use the lodge or the boathouse. Truth is EVERYTHING we allow poses risk. We attempt to mitigate risk by having rules/policies governing the activities permitted.
We want to enrich the lives of our fellow property owners so we create situations where we can enjoy one another, our mutual interests, our magnificent surroundings, and we buy insurance for the unforeseen.
To your point, if we allow something, anything, what is our increased risk? The measurement of that risk is provided to us by our insurance company by way of our premiums. The answer received by the Board on this issue apparently has led them to determine not to permit the activity.
I suspect the Board could, if properly motivated, reach out to other communities allowing such things and learn how those communities deal with governance, controls, regulation, enforcement, and insurance. We could then use the info as a guide and plot a course of action.
I think however the net-net here is “Does the community have the will to change the Restrictions and Declarations to allow for scooters and golf carts?” A 67% majority is difficult to achieve. If it’s in fact 80% as stated above in this thread, I suspect this will be over before it's begun. One’s vote does not have to be supported by logic. As some contributors have indicated, they’re not going to support the change regardless.
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Many of the changes discussed on this blog would require a change in the Restrictions and Declarations.
Can someone confirm exactly what percentage of votes is required for a change and the type of vote (full membership or board of directors)???
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Section 21 of the Bylaws states that they may be "amended by the majority vote of the members of the Association present or absentee ballot or attorney at the annual meeting of the Association..."
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This is correct. As a matter of fact, at each annual meeting, there are issues that are voted on by those present. This year, we will vote on the proposed annual budget which is a standard process. And there will be at least one other issue regarding a change to our governing documents also coming for a vote. Please read about this issue in the May Newsletter. There may be another one also to be voted on. In other words, the governing documents are changed by a majority vote of those present or who vote by absentee ballot. All the more reason for those who are not able to attend the June 28th meeting to request a ballot from Sue Eichorn at 304-789-2481.
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Will ballots list the proposed change? If not, how could someone who votes absentee possibly vote on a change? What is the procedure for getting a change placed on the ballot? Is there a way to give a PO who will attend another PO's proxy?
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Thanks for the info on how the voting process works.
We have an absentee ballot and the only voting options are for board members, not for any changes to the governing documents.
So, I have to wonder if you have to attend to vote on other issues.
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is Private property defined as the personal land area (lot) owned by the owner or the community property?
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I think the Baord defines private proerty to include the community property although that is not entirely accurate. The community property is deemed public access since it's used for commerce. This is how shopping centers and malls are designated. They're privately owned but they have to adhere to certain local, state, and federal regulations (I.E. comply with the ADA- Americans with Disabilities Act,etc).
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I was thinking more of how the insurance people define it.
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